Host:
Namaskar. Welcome to the third episode of the Debdarshan Podcast. Many people have requested that I discuss Tantra in this podcast episode. So, following your requests, I am going to introduce you to someone who has spent his entire life practicing the sadhana (spiritual discipline) of Ma Tara. Tantra, secret knowledge, Pishach (spirit) sadhana—he has experienced all of this through his life. Let me introduce the person about whom a podcast episode of this kind has never been made before. We have him on the podcast for the first time; he is none other than the well-known secret practitioner, Shyamakhyapa.
Host:
In Bankim Chandra's Kapalkundala, we saw the Kapalik (a type of ascetic) meditating while sitting on a corpse. He needed a new corpse every day. That's why he wanted to sacrifice Nabakumar. Again, if we look at Tara Das Bandyopadhyay's Taranath Tantrik—oh, my! Taranath Tantrik himself used to perform Pishach sadhana. There are many writings and explanations about Pishach or Pishachi sadhana there.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, there are. Taranath—his name is famous in the world of Tantra. His gurus were Agam Tantra and Nigamtantra. Agambagish. His guru was Agambagish. They were terrifyingly powerful. What you see today, people practicing Tantra, they actually have no real strength. Most of their strength is on the negative side, not the positive.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Now, regarding Pishach sadhana and Pishachi sadhana, there is a specific place for it. It cannot be done everywhere. Shhmashanae prantare bapi sunnyagare bisheshoto (In crematoriums, open fields, or especially in empty houses). That is, in a crematorium, a vast open field, or a shunagar—a house where no clothes are dried, no hair is combed, and no women reside. Such a place is called a shunagar. They appear very quickly in these places.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
The best place is the crematorium because corpses are there. We have seen with our own eyes during Pishach sadhana, while a corpse is burning, practitioners tearing meat from the body or eating the brain matter. There was someone here who told me, Shyamal Da, I want to perform Pishach sadhana. Will you watch over me? It takes 21 days. You have to stay inside the crematorium; you cannot leave.
Host:
Really?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, you have to stay inside for 21 days. I said, Fine, I'll see, what's the harm? One night, on the night of Ekadashi (the 11th lunar day), I was in the crematorium all night. I saw an unclaimed corpse of a widow being brought in. There were no relatives. It seemed like those unclaimed bodies from old age homes. They just drop the body and leave with the receipt. They don't care what happens to the body.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I saw the man, while the lady was half-burnt, crack open the skull with a pair of tongs. As soon as the brain matter came out, he took it all in a bowl. He mixed that brain matter with alcohol and consumed it. I saw this with my own eyes. From that moment, I felt a sense of disgust toward him. I thought, if this is Pishach or Pishachi sadhana, then what is the sadhana of God? I had this question.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
These practitioners are under the influence of the Tamasic guna (the quality of darkness/ignorance). You know of Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas. These are Tamasic practitioners. They cannot rise very high. They go a little way, gain something, and then get derailed.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Pishachi is the worst because they can kill you at any moment. A Pishach is somewhat cautious, but a Pishachi is not. Especially Karna Pishach. Karna Pishach means whispering in the ear. If Karna Pishach is cast upon you, you will hear many things in your ear. You ask a question, and it gives the answer. That is the rule of Karna Pishach. It's not an easy thing. Once it is cast upon you, there is no way to take it back. One cannot do it.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Like Kala Jadu (Black Magic) today—you might not know anything, but suddenly black magic is cast upon you. We get cases of black magic every day. It comes directly from Kamakhya, Kamakhya Tantra, from Mayong. We had once met a great Aghori from Mayong. He stayed here all night and performed a hom (fire ritual). He asked me, Gurudev, I want to perform a hom. I said, Go ahead. I couldn't say no; he was a famous Aghori. He performed the hom all night. Two or three people here saw it.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Only Aghoris can attain Pishach-siddhi (mastery over spirits). Ordinary people cannot. Aghoris don't spare anything—from the meat of a corpse to anything else. Karna Pishach appears at a certain time. Usually, a paste is made using one's own excrement and a branch of a specific tree, and it is applied as a mark on the forehead.
Host:
Really?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, these things have to be done. They are very foul. I personally dislike this. I have performed Tap sadhana (asceticism), but I never went toward these things.
Host:
Have you ever performed Pishach sadhana?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
No, no. But I know the entire process. I never felt the need for it. I am well-aware of what Pishach, Pishachi, or Peri (fairy/spirit) sadhana entails. Peri sadhana usually happens in forests where there are fruits and flowers. Peris come there and develop a friendship with the practitioner. Later, they might even kill them. These Karna Pishach or Pishachis do not let people live. They kill them. They kill them outright. If anything goes slightly wrong, they kill. They don't look back.
Host:
Tell me one thing—every practitioner's main goal is to find a path, to attain liberation, or to see God.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Exactly. Seeing God. The final goal is to see God.
Host:
In the case of Pishach, suppose someone is seeking God, they want God as their deity. For someone practicing Pishach or Pishachi sadhana, they want the spirit as their deity. So, why do you call it a Tamasic quality? Why is it not Sattvic?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
A Sattvic person will not do these things. Rajasic and Tamasic—the activities of kings are Rajasic. Tamasic is the lowest level of work. This is where a person gradually gets destroyed and moves away from God. Tamas doesn't let you go near God. This is the matter of Narayana (the Divine). Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas. These spirits don't let you go near God, and God also detests them immensely.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
In Western countries too—Europe or Latin America—there are many records of such spirit-based sadhana. Two people from Russia and one from France came to me to learn Tantra. They had even collected books, English books. One practices Tara sadhana, and the other two hadn't yet found a path.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Anyway, I knew a famous person—he is no longer in this world—who used to practice Voodoo and Pishach sadhana. When I went to his house after he passed away, I saw how he had set up his home in Kolkata; it was entirely for Pishach and Voodoo sadhana. He was a very famous man.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I agree. It's a matter of choice. Someone is busy with this, someone with God. But everything is positive, not negative. If you do Tantra with a Pishach, it's not negative; it's positive.
Host:
That's what I wanted to know.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, it's positive. Calling God is positive, Peri sadhana is positive—everything is positive. There is nothing negative. Otherwise, why would people do it? Many people do it; they come to me and tell me. They tried to influence me too. They said, You have so much power, why don't you go for this? I said, I won't. I will never misuse my power. I am with God, and I will stay with God, no matter what happens. They all tried to impress me, saying, Why don't you do Pishach or Karna Pishach sadhana? I know the sadhana completely, but I won't do it because it makes one low in the eyes of God. One can never be high.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
My goal is to attain God in this human life. My goal is not to attain a Pishach. There was someone named Kalobaran in Tarapith who died recently. I saw him; he was a Pishach-siddha. I saw him eating the meat of a corpse. There was a crematorium in front of his house. He used to play football with the skull of a corpse in that crematorium. I have seen this too.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
In my opinion, it's better for a wise person not to go into these practices. It's like losing one's life needlessly. You can get power very quickly. You will get power fast, but you will struggle to let go of that power. It will constantly haunt you to use it.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Take a snake, for example. Its power is its venom. If the snake releases its venom, it becomes lifeless. Similarly, these Tantric practices are a kind of ego—I have this knowledge, I will show you, etc. There is an attitude of I'll see you.
Host:
Is Pishach sadhana the same as Karna Pishach?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
No, Pishach is different, Karna Pishach is different. But the lineage is the same.
Host:
What is the subtle difference between Karna Pishach and Pishach/Pishachi?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Karna Pishach is male, and Karna Pishachi is female. Females have a more vengeful nature. That's why we say if you perform Karna Pishachi sadhana, you will get results faster, but it will also cause the downfall of many people.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Usually, it is seen that these practitioners die at the hands of these Pishachs or Pishachis.
Host:
Why does this happen?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Revenge. You made me work so hard, I won't let you go. It's like ghost or spirit sadhana. You are making them work for free. You have controlled their power and made them do bekar khatano (unpaid labor). So, one day they wake up and kill you. There's no doubt about it. There are countless examples here of people who did these things and ended up dying in the crematorium.
Host:
Can you share an experience?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
There was a man named Tulaburo. He used to practice ghost and spirit sadhana. He used to bring clothes of people who died in accidents from the morgue. He would sanctify them with mantras and hang them on a tree. At dusk, he would sit for sadhana with a pot of blood. The spirit had to come and drink that blood, and then it would do whatever he commanded. This is called chalan (dispatching).
Host:
Who drinks the blood?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
The ghost drinks it. Otherwise, it won't work. That is its food. We have seen this with our own eyes.
Host:
Can you describe how it drinks or how it appears?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Only if he gives the command! The ghost wants food. Everything belongs to the practitioner—how he uses the ghost or spirit is his personal matter. The ghost or spirit becomes subservient to the practitioner. But later, when they get angry or tired of being used for labor, they kill.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
These practitioners cannot submerge themselves to bathe in a pond. If they do, the spirit will wring their neck. So they have to maintain certain rules. They cannot go anywhere alone. They also need something—a piece of the bamboo used to carry a corpse. They take a piece of that bamboo and use it for their work. I have stayed with these people for a long time, and I developed a sense of hatred. It's good they are dead. Two or three of them died, and it's for the best. One died right on a funeral pyre. His guru died the same way. The disciple died on the road.
Host:
Do you know anyone currently who performs Pishach sadhana?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
No, not at the moment. Not in my knowledge.
Host:
But I've heard there are some people in Kamakhya who still practice this.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I'm telling you, I went to Kamakhya. I was there for six months. I went to attain siddhi from Ma Kamakhya. I attained it and came back; I didn't look back. I don't bother my head with those things. I detest it.
Host:
A practitioner who doesn't do Pishach sadhana, he also meditates with a corpse.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, that's true. It's not sadhana; it's something we are mandated to do.
Host:
And the one performing Pishach sadhana also uses a corpse. What is the difference between the two?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
There is a big difference. The corpse used by a Pishach practitioner doesn't rot or decompose quickly. It stays for a long time.
Host:
Does he use it through his mantras?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, entirely through mantras. Everything is mantras.
Host:
Let's change the subject slightly. We are sitting here in your ashram, which is right next to the crematorium. Why did you choose this place? Was there a divine command?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
There was a command. I cannot do any work for people without Ma Tara. I need her. I don't do any work at home. Whatever work is done, it happens here in front of Ma. Everyone's work gets done. Very few can say their work wasn't done. Countless people say they have prospered or are doing well.
Host:
How many years have you been practicing here?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
32 years. I came to the crematorium at a very young age. I used to do japa (chanting) and other rituals. Back then, there were wooden pyres. I used to see everything—the bodies burning. Now it's electric, you don't see anything. Back then, there was no human settlement like this. There were some houses, but the smoke from the pyres would enter the houses during meal times.
Host:
Every practitioner knows that before entering a crematorium, one must protect their body with a ritual and then take permission from the Shhmashana-rokkhok (Protector of the Crematorium).
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
There is a Shhmashana-rokkhok and a Shhmashana-dwari (Gatekeeper). Ma used to protect us. When we went home, she would send two guards with us. After a few years, she stopped. She would give us a protection mantra and a stick. They would drop me home and come back.
Host:
Have you personally felt or seen the Shhmashana-rokkhok here?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
It is our rule—if you ever come face-to-face with the Shhmashana-rokkhok, it is a terrifying sight. At that moment, you must cut your finger and offer a few drops of blood to the soil. Otherwise, death is certain. Just offer the blood, nothing else is needed.
Host:
Have you had such an experience?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, I had to do it. I used to keep a knife with me. I don't need it now. Now we are well-acquainted—the crematorium, the spirits, the gatekeepers. No matter how late I come at night, no one questions me. Even now, many young men come here at midnight, and they have to give an account of themselves. The Shhmashana-rokkhok is terrifying. If he appears, you must offer blood from your finger. He has a massive body. Every crematorium has a Shhmashana-rokkhok and a Shhmashana-dwari.
Host:
You have practiced Ma's sadhana here. How do you feel her presence?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
If I don't come, Ma's face looks gloomy. When I come, it brightens up. Everyone here says the same thing. It's a mother-son relationship. Where else will it go? I've been with Ma for so long.
Host:
How do you perceive this mother-son relationship?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I won't tell you that. Don't ask me this. I won't say. I have a relationship with Ma. If I tell her something, she listens and gets the work done. This much I can say. Only if I am in great need—not otherwise. I don't disturb Ma for no reason. If I am in deep trouble, I just hold onto Ma's door.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Once, the electricity line to my house was cut. I held onto Ma's door and said, Ma, what have you done? The line is cut; where will I stay with the kids? The next morning at 4 AM, someone came on a motorbike. My wife was sweeping the courtyard. He asked, Is Gurudev sleeping? She said, Yes. He gave her 1,000 rupees and said, Give this to him. Tell him I work in a bank and couldn't get my money. I've come to Kolkata and am going back to Shantiniketan. Please keep this money. I woke up to find the money for the electricity bill had been arranged. There are many such incidents. Ma arranges everything.
Host:
When you first started, did you start alone?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, alone. I didn't have anyone else.
Host:
Were you somewhere else before this?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I was in Tarapith for a long time. I was trying to find Bamdeb Baba. One day, while I was doing japa, a boy came. He had cancer. He said, What are you doing here? I said, I'm doing japa for Ma Tara. He said, Nothing will happen. Call Bamdeb Baba. I stayed in Tarapith for 12 years to call him. Then, Baba initiated me on a funeral pyre. After that, I never had to look back.
Host:
How long has it been since you visited Tarapith?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
About a year. Tarapith has lost its charm. There is nothing left of the crematorium's significance. Everything is ruined. Cars are driving over the crematorium. I'm speaking from my own experience—seven or eight years ago, the crematorium had a certain gravity. Now it's gone. You can't even tell where the crematorium begins. Shhmashana comes from the word shun-shan (desolate/silent). We come to the crematorium; we have a friendship with it now, so it doesn't scare us or question us.
Host:
Have you ever experienced any incorporeal spirits?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, many times.
Host:
Of what kind?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Spirits come. When they appear, they have a very foul smell. If it's a good soul, it smells like flowers. We can sense it.
Host:
Does it depend on whether the death was accidental or natural?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Not necessarily. Generally, if it's a good soul, we feel it, and there is a strong scent of flowers.
Host:
What causes the difference between a good soul and a bad soul? Is it unfulfilled desires?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
No, bad is bad, and good is good. It depends on their character and mindset when they were alive.
Host:
Have you ever felt anything unusual here?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
We performed the Maha Mrityunjaya Yagya (a ritual for conquering death) for three years. Earlier, we used to offer non-vegetarian food to Ma, but we stopped that. Since the Mrityunjaya Yagya, and because Shiva is here, we are now entirely Sattvic. We did the Mrityunjaya Yagya for three years and Pratyangira (a fierce goddess) sadhana for one year. We did four years of intense rituals here.
Host:
I also want to ask you about dogs. They are often compared to Aghor Bhairav.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, Bamdeb Baba used to have a black dog named Kalu. He would get angry if someone called him Kalu; he'd say, Call him Kalu Babu. He is a human who has come to me. Also, if a dog cries, we know a death will occur. No matter where it cries—the crematorium, a house, or the neighborhood—a death is certain. This is an absolute truth.
Host:
It was a pleasure talking to you. There are many more things we wish to learn from you in the future.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Surely. Whatever I know, I will tell you.
Host:
We have learned a lot today.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
What you see is not everything. It's a practitioner's personal matter; no true practitioner will tell you everything. Remember this. I don't like falsehood, so I told you the truth. Otherwise, I could have exaggerated many things.
Host:
Because I see a lot of discussion about Karna Pishach these days. People are talking about it as if it's easy, but it's not. It's a very serious matter.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
It's a serious thing. Pishach or Pishachi sadhana is many times tougher than the sadhana for God. You can attain God, but you won't easily attain a Pishach. You have to work very hard for it. We have read about it in literature, in the stories of Taranath Tantrik. There is a story called Damri—it is absolutely true.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
The path to God is made confusing so that you don't call Him. God Himself has made it this way. The path is not easy. We have spent so many years and haven't found everything yet.
Host:
I wish to do another episode with you. You are a practitioner of Ma Shyama. There are eight Taras and eight Kalis. I want to discuss how you found Ma Shyama among them.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
I practiced Kali for 24 years and Tara for 10 years. I have a Kali temple right across the road where I used to worship. It's a very secluded place.
Host:
I will come to you again to discuss this. You have a wealth of knowledge.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
You are welcome. If you want to know something and I know it, I will tell you. What's the harm? You are welcome anytime.
Host:
It was a pleasure talking to you. Namaskar.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Namaskar.