Interviewer:
Salutations, Gurudev.
Gurudev:
Salutations, son. Tell me.
Interviewer:
Tomorrow is the birthday of our heroic monk, Vivekananda. You celebrate Vivekananda's birthday here every year with great devotion and grandeur. Vivekananda is venerable to you.
Gurudev:
Absolutely.
Interviewer:
So, regarding tomorrow's celebration and your feelings about Vivekananda...
Gurudev:
About feelings, look, you spoke of a person who gives me goosebumps just talking about him. Right? Now we live in West Bengal. He also lived in West Bengal. But the point is, we never gave him the kind of public appreciation he deserved. Maybe today there's some official trumpeting or some dancing and jumping around with school children. Nothing else is happening besides this. Vivekananda's ideals, his messagesâthey are like an impression on a person's path of life. An impression. Today, Vivekananda cannot be judged just by taking a picture and drumming like this. People think they are doing a lot for Vivekananda, but in reality, nothing is being said about him. Right? Taking a picture on the street with four people drumming... I feel very small about this. I am a person of West Bengal. I've aged quite a bit. I've looked at Vivekananda with great respect since childhood. And I read his messages. What extraordinary messages! If people followed those extraordinary messages properly, the social decay we see today would not have happened. He is a great practitioner or a world-monk whose messages spread throughout the world. Right? The son of Bengal, like a tiger, will bring about harmony. He made everyone drink from the same ghat, as you saw at the Chicago Parliament of Religions. I do not want to discuss this much. But his messages of fearlessness are very much alive. If people follow each oneâand I'm not just saying student life, I mean in political life. In political life, he said many things about those who are in politics. But there's no question of following them. Just putting a garland on Vivekananda, the Chief Minister and her associates going and putting a few garlands... at most there will be a seminar or a discussion about his life. These are almost non-existent. We've seen since childhood that Vivekananda's birthday was celebrated in schools. In those days, teachers would roughly force it. Everyone had to come, sing songsâit was all there.
Interviewer:
Now it's a holiday, Gurudev. There's no celebration as such.
Gurudev:
No, no issue at all. Now, this is a topic of discussion for usâthat what Vivekananda said cannot be finished in one lifetime. What he has written or said...
Interviewer:
Gurudev, let me ask one thing. Vivekananda presented India's spirituality to the world stage. He compelled the world to recognize India.
Gurudev:
Yes, he said one thing: you think India has fallen or spirituality in India has fallen, but that's not the case at all. A day will come when India will again occupy the highest seat in the world assembly. It will be great in work, great in religion. He said this. Do not think India or spirituality has fallen. A day will come when spirituality will awaken, and work will follow suit. It will be great in work, great in spirituality. That day is not very far away. All of the West will come to imitate us. They will come to imitate the East because he was a renouncer. He was an all-renouncing monk. People today are more inclined towards hedonism. People see hedonism as a big thing now. They do not believe in renunciation. But not just India, the way the whole world is going, hedonism has increased. Parents are realizing the disadvantages of hedonism for the future. That's why they are trying to understand and know Vivekananda. This is happening in the West. We in the East treat him like a 'beggar in our own house,' do not we? We can't give him any respect. But a day will come when he must be given respect, and I think that day is not very far off. Because what he said is matching word for word. Do you understand the sentiment? He spoke about those who are MLAs in India. He said, you may rule the state, but you are slaves to the public. He spoke about leadership. Lead, certainly, but your character should be like a slave. A slave, meaning you will remain a slave or a servant to the people. But in reality, we see that the people are treated like servants while they act like kings and emperors. It has completely flipped. He used to say that you must do the work. Goddess Lakshmi may or may not be kind to you. People may say things to you, they may abuse you, but you should not back down. You must go forward, and a day will come when your work will be written in golden letters in the history of India, and indeed, in the history of the world. Right? He said Lakshmi might not be kind, you might not get money. But you go forward; keep doing your work correctly. A day will come when your name will be written in golden letters in the pages of history. He said this too. He said many other things that we do not even know despite hearing. There are some educated people who study and practice Vivekananda's teachings. But they are silent. They do not say anything. And even if they do, the government will not listen. That's the thing. There's no scope. No scope at all. I'm talking about the time when such a great man crossed the 'black water' (sea). And when he returned from Chicago after giving his speech, there was not a single person to garland him. Right? Today we might say many things, but he had to endure a lot of oppression, misconduct, and abuse. He even had to hear people calling him an extortionist. Many people called him that. Right? So that happened. Besides, he had a very close friend who was a school teacher; they studied together. One day, they met at a hospital. Seeing him after a long time, the friend asked, "How are you?" He replied, "I will not be around much longer." At that time, our monastery (Math) had already started. There was much conflict when the monastery began. Then Vivekananda decided that such conflict was not neededâhe would sell the land. There was no need for a monastery. There was much trouble about this, but later his disciples and nearby educated people told him, "No, do not do this. Stay true to the vow you have taken." And later, the mission and monastery you see today were created by him. He had to hear many things; that happened as well. It's also true that he had to go to court many times for family mattersâBankshall Court and other courts. And in the final stage, when his sister died, he broke down. He never usually shed tears, but he did then. This is written in books. And he practiced physical exercise regularly. He woke up early for it. That's why he said, "Play sports, do physical exercise, build your body, and then study and everything else." That culture of physical exercise has almost vanished now. Whatever little remains is as good as nothing. He emphasized physical exercise and gymnastics a lot.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, please tell us a bit about Vivekananda's devotion to his Guru.
Gurudev:
Look, you have to admit one thing: Vivekananda was quite educated for his time, very educated coming from the Dutta family. Ramakrishna-dev, on the other hand, did not have much formal education. In that sense, Vivekananda did not show much external devotion to the Guru at first. It was internal, but not apparent on the outside. Internally, his devotion was immense. When he built the monastery, he seated the Guru and the Guru-mother there. He did not seat Kali or Tara. He seated the Guru-dev and fulfilled his internal devotion. But the matter of Guru-bhakti (devotion) became a bit different. Ramakrishna-dev used to wear short clothes and could not speak particularly well.
Interviewer:
In the beginning, there was the matter of testing him...
Gurudev:
That was there, certainly. He tested him in various ways and then came to the conclusion, "No, he is my Guru." He even wanted to change Gurus many times and went to Powhari Baba for initiation. Even then, Ramakrishna-dev said only one thing to Mother Bhabotarini: "Mother, he is my 'food.' May no one else give him initiation." Later, he returned from there without initiation and came back to Ramakrishna. Right? I do not know why that happened; maybe it was the Mother's infinite mercy or her hearing Ramakrishna's prayer. As a result, he took initiation from Ramakrishna himself. But he had no personal gain; he never even believed in God initially. I doubt if he even crossed the threshold of Kali or Mother Bhabotarini back then. He believed in Monism (Advaita). Ramakrishna believed in Dualism (Dvaita), and there was a tussle between them. He used to say, "The master of all is one, there is no second." Right? But Ramakrishna said, "No, there are many godsâKali, Tara, Durga, they all exist." This was not acceptable to Vivekananda because he had read the Vedas, the Vedanta, and the Vedangas. In that sense, Ramakrishna was not as formally educated. Later, when Totapuri came, he took Ramakrishna from Dualism to Monism. There was quite a conflict with Ramakrishna initially. Right? What Vivekananda wanted, Ramakrishna eventually found in Monismâthat the two are essentially the same, there's no difference. Then Vivekananda was assured that yes, both Dualism and Monism exist. So, the Math (monastery) believes in Monism, while the Mission believes in Dualism. But the point is that Ramakrishna gave him unmerited grace. This is called 'unmerited grace' (ohoituki kripa). He did not have to work for it. He did not care for studying; he loved to be engaged in physical exercise and such things. Anyway, Ramakrishna suddenly decided one day to seat Vivekananda on the Mother's seat, placed his foot on his chest, and said, "From today, I have sold myself to you." As a result, Vivekananda became ill. It's not possible to hold such immense power. You could call it unmerited grace from God or Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna 'sold' himself when he placed his foot on him. He did indeed sell himself, and later his illness took hold. As long as he had the power, the illness could not touch him. But once the power was gone, the illness took over, and he suffered greatly for two years. Vivekananda did not have to work for it, but receiving that unmerited grace made him stable. Later, he went to Kanyakumariâyou have seen what is now called Vivekananda Rock. There, he had a vision of Mother Durga. Then he made a decision and told his disciples, "Whether you do anything else or not, perform Kumari Puja, and do not omit Durga Puja. You can certainly do Durga Puja. You need not do any other puja." He said to perform Durga Puja and Kumari Puja. This has been happening since Vivekananda's time and continues today. It's a sight to seeâmany young girls (Kumaris) worshipped together, and Mother Durga worshipped there too. This is the specialty of our monastery. Apart from that, a monastery signifies Monism, right? God is one and identical, there is no second. "The master of all is one"âthat's it. But our Ramakrishna used to say, "No, there are many godsâKali, Tara. Those who live by the Ganges have 33 crore deities with them." He used to say this, which Vivekananda did not like at all. Internally, he had chosen his Guru, and later he seated the Guru and the Guru-mother there; no other deity got a place except Durga. Right? Because even after Ramakrishna passed away, Vivekananda lived for some time. When he would come by boat from Belur Math to Dakshineswar to meet Mother, his disciples said he would sweat profusely. One day a disciple asked, "Father, why are you sweating so much? Is there some trouble?" He replied, "No, I'm going to see Mother. I'm sitting here in the boat wondering what I will say, what Mother will ask, and what answer I will give." Many such incidents happened; there's no doubt about it. When Ramakrishna told Mother Sarada, "You are my successor," he took the bangle off Mother's hand, put it on her, and said, "Do not lose this. And I've left 12 disciples for you; they will look after you." She asked, "What did you give me? You did not give me any children or anything at all." Then Ramakrishna told Mother Sarada, "I've given you 12 sons; they will look after you. And I've given you this bangle; do not ever take it off. As long as you live, keep this bangle on." That's why you'll see a bangle on Mother Sarada's hand; she never took it off. This is the story, and other things about him are better left unsaid.
Interviewer:
You've spoken extensively about Vivekananda in other episodes. Speaking about him is not something that can be done in just 10 or 20 minutes.
Gurudev:
No, no.
Interviewer:
So, tomorrow is Vivekananda's birthday, and it will be celebrated here. I wanted to hear a bit from you today on that occasion.
Gurudev:
Right.
Interviewer:
Could you tell us a bit about the plan for tomorrow?
Gurudev:
The plan is simple. 'Baba' (the deity/Vivekananda) will be decorated, and some food will be prepared to distribute to everyoneâthe disciples who work here, stay here, or visit. Some people will come, and we'll give out 'bhog-prasad' (sacramental food) in Baba's name. Tomorrow is a special day for Baba. Mother's role is not emphasized tomorrow. There will be sacrificial fires (homa-yagya), and everything that usually happens will take place; nothing will be omitted. It will be specifically in his name. No one else will be prominent tomorrow, not even the Mother; the day will be observed in his name only. We do not want any grand show; we do what is necessary with true devotion and respect. Such a person will not be born in West Bengal again. We take great pride that such a man was born in our West Bengal, even though he was never given due respect. Today, any respect we give is just formalâwe give it because we have to. Schools and government institutions are closed in his name. That's fine; it's a good thing. If it happens for Gandhi-ji, why not for him?
Interviewer:
Regarding the celebration you mentioned, if schools were open, maybe it could have been done with students. But since it's a holiday, that does not happen.
Gurudev:
And this is a cremation ground; that's a factor.
Interviewer:
Even so, you are doing it here. Elsewhere, after the garland is placed, people are not even found to take it off later. Is that any way to show respect?
Gurudev:
No, it's not about respect; it's just doing it for the sake of doing it. To truly show respect, one needs to do several things, especially talk about him. But where are such people? And as you said, one should want to hear from those who are actively practicing his teachings.
Gurudev:
Yes, certainly. One should want to hear from a few good people; there are such people. Besides the monastery and the mission, many people have devotion for Vivekananda, have studied him extensively, and have a lot of information about him. That's the thing. I do not know about that; we are doing our part, and who will do it later, I do not know. We do it out of respect. On this 12th, you must observe it, garland his photo, perform the yagya and pujaâeverything he would have wanted will be done.
Interviewer:
Friends, you heard from Gurudev. Tomorrow, at our Rajpur Mahashoshan's Shantikunj, the birthday of the man of the age, Swami Vivekananda, will be celebrated with due dignity and respect, as it is every year. Gurudev, salutations to you.
Gurudev:
Salutations, son.