Interviewer:
Gurudeb, we have come to you today with some questions. We had some questions in our minds and we have come to know about those questions from you.
Gurudeb:
Yes, tell me, my son, tell me.
Interviewer:
Father, among today's questions, the first one is: Father, is there any difference between kindness and justice? And if there is, what is it?
Gurudeb:
There is certainly a difference between kindness and justice. But from within, it won't work without kindness, will it? Both justice and morality are upheld by God, and Ramprosad has said in his song, "I have heard from people that you are kind, O Mother." Meaning, he himself had never seen the kind Mother, but he wrote in his song, "I have heard from people that you are kind, O Mother," so he had heard of the kind Mother. Now, what does "kind" mean? You yourselves know what kindness is. "Please be kind," and so on.
Gurudeb:
And what you are saying is justiceâjustice is a judgment. For this, the government has made arrangements for lawyers, solicitors, barristers, and others for the purpose of justice. But people impose justice on God; it is said that God judges justly. The statement is true, God judges justly, and that is time-consuming. We always think it would be better if justice were delivered today. But there is no guarantee that justice will be delivered today. For that, we have judges who dispense justice. It might take a lot of time for people, and they cannot keep their patience. They think if it happens now, it would be better right away.
Gurudeb:
And kindness isâsuppose you have done something wrong, a big wrong, and you go and say, "Please be kind to me, forgive me," as we generally say. Nobody can say whether God is kind or not; not even Ramprosad could say. Ramprosad said the same thing: "I have heard from people that you are kind, O Mother." So, kindness and justice are two different things, not the same.
Gurudeb:
Again, the one who delivers justice can also show kindness if they want. Suppose a case is ongoing and someone says to the judge, "Please be kind to me," and so on. There is a connection with justice; it's wrong to say there is none. The one who delivers justice can also show kindness; it's no big deal. So, it depends on them.
Gurudeb:
And we are putting everything on God. What is not happening is God, what is happening is God; we keep putting both on God. Yet nobody has seen God; there is no footprint of God, nothing at all. But people always say the same thingâthat God is there and will judge, will do this or that, or show kindness. Now, both things are being done by humans. Otherwise, judges, lawyers, and barristers would not be there.
Gurudeb:
So, kindness is certainly there when we are applying to the judge and saying, "Your honor, please be kind to me." Maybe I have done something so bad that I need kindness. But they will judge justlyâI mean, the judge will judge justly. And kindness is their personal matter; they may not show kindness. Suppose someone has committed a murder and they will be punished with hanging. Maybe the judge shows kindness, waives the hanging, and sentences them to life imprisonment. These things exist and shouldn't be completely confused.
Gurudeb:
Seemingly, we are seeing one thingâthat kindness is perhaps shown by God and justice is delivered by God. But the judges are the ones doing it. Ultimately, that's not it. What's happeningâwho will show kindness? Humans show kindness to each other; they stand by each other. So, humans are doing everything, and we are just putting it on God.
Gurudeb:
Nobody can say God is there; even we can never say God is there. Take refuge in God, alright? Now everything is happening invisibly, nothing is happening visibly. Maybe God is surely there, or whatever great personalities have said, there is nothing wrong in it. God is there; you call Him, take refuge in Him, and then you will receive kindness as well as justice. And that's a time-consuming matter; ordinary people don't have that much patience. One cannot sit and wait for when God will show kindness or when God will judge justly. One cannot sit and wait for this, my son.
Gurudeb:
That's why God has created judges and lawyers, so that justice can be delivered or kindness can be shown. They are humans too, not God. When things go to an extreme point, when they judge someone and it's an extreme case, then they might order a hanging. Then they don't have anything called kindness or pity. Even after a hanging order, there is still a matter of kindness left with the president. If they waive it, they show kindness. Then kindness and justice are practically the same.
Gurudeb:
Judgment only happens when you do something wrong. You won't judge beforehand; judgment only happens if you do something wrong. If you do something bad, the police will come to your house; if you commit robbery or theft, the police will come to your house. Similarly, if you do something bad, only then we go to God or to the court to get justice, to get kindness. People are putting it on God, but it's not actually like that. Humans are showing kindness to humans; humans are judging humans. The same humans are doing it. Ancestors and great personalities have each said God exists. They have meditated on this and they have come to the conclusion that God exists, but if you are asked to show God, you won't be able to. That's where you will fail. So, the point is that humans are showing kindness to humans and humans are judging humans. We are just putting it on God; this is the main thing. Don't you understand? Yes, tell me, what else will you say?
Interviewer:
Father, that means we have to go to God at some point or another.
Gurudeb:
Everyone, nobody is excluded. Now, what is there to hold on to but God? Our ultimate power is God. We keep going as long as we can, but at the end, we say that God will judgeâat the very end, not before that. Because unless you fall into despair, you won't call God. Both the Gita and the Chandi started with the yoga of despair. So, when a person falls into despair, they call God.
Gurudeb:
And everyone knows that nobody can show an entity called God. Still, you can say people have something to hold on toâthat maybe God existsâor you can say it's a person's self-satisfaction. The ultimate power is being called God. So, He may show kindness, He may judge, or He may not. That doesn't matter, but one thing is known: if you do something wrong, maybe you remain hidden today, but one day you will be judged. One day you will be judged; whether God does it or not, I can't say. Or whether humans do it or not, I can't say, but one day there will be a judgment. There is no escape whatsoever. The supreme soul who is there, sitting quietly, cannot tolerate these things. The soul might be doing many bad things, but the supreme soul does not do any bad things; it is completely steady. And whatever is being done, our mind or soul is doing it. That's why calling God won't work if you cannot show God.
Gurudeb:
Nobody could show God; everything is heard from people. That's why the song of Ramprosad was sungâmeaning, everything of yours is heard from people; I myself have never seen You. Yes, tell me.
Interviewer:
But father, people of the whole world are calling God from every corner of the world. In that sense, will God always judge everyone's wrongs? Is God omnipresent?
Gurudeb:
Now, there are two things: dualism and non-dualism. Those who follow non-dualism do not believe much in God; they have held on to a supreme power. There is a supreme power and it is acting. But those who believe in dualism say that Kali, Tara, or Durga will judge you. But those who believe in non-dualism do not dabble much in these things. They say only one thing: God is one and non-dual, there is no second. They believe in that supreme power who is in the skyâthat auspicious, radiant, immortal Being. They believe that this world is running by Him.
Gurudeb:
Again, those who believe in dualism are wandering from door to door of GodâKali didn't work, then Tara, then Bagala, then Kamala. They are wandering like this, they are not finding God, but whatever people are explaining to them, they take that. They have no identity of their own; they wander aroundâtoday they are worshipping Kali, tomorrow Tara, the day after Durga. They believe in dualismâthat there are many Gods and many things will happen if they go to God.
Gurudeb:
Then, suppose a person's life doesn't always go the same way; as the hands of a clock turn, a person's life also turns. A person moves in various ways from birth. So, maybe they got better and immediately said, "I went to Mother Kali and she has made me better." That's not it; maybe that was their suitable time. The wheel will turn, won't it? In that case, we say, "Oh, I offered puja to Kali and Kali made me better."
Gurudeb:
So, there is a lot of debate on these, and there is nothing scientific. From doctors to practitioners, everyone believes in God. Now, where it is and why they believe, this doesn't go into my head. Maybe that's the last resortâI mean, when a person is completely defeated, the only last resort is God; then they get busy with this. Tell me.
Interviewer:
Gurudeb, does the temple not have a separate significance?
Gurudeb:
No, no, non-dualism and dualism. Those who are non-dualists, those in monasteries, they are non-dualists, they don't wander around temples that much; they don't need to. But those who believe in dualism have to wander from temple to temple. They are now going to this temple once, then that temple, then another temple, thinking that maybe they will get better here or there. So, dualists don't believe in temples; they stay in monasteries. They don't dabble much in God; they know God is one and non-dual. They meditate in that way.
Gurudeb:
And there is another group of people who are wandering around drinking water from every placeâKali once, then Tara, then Bagalaâthinking they will get something from here or there. Tell me.
Interviewer:
And father, we have known that God does whatever He wants because there is nobody above Him. Does that mean the Supreme Lord can commit suicide? Can the Supreme Lord ever suffer through theft or adultery?
Gurudeb:
No, there is no such thing; it's will power. People go out with will power. "You are the one who wills, Mother Tara, you do your work, people say I am doing it." So, this will power is a matter of your own will power. And all the bad things happening, like murders, are all because of will power. "I felt like I will murder," "I felt like I will steal," "I felt like I will commit robbery." There is no connection with God here, nor has God ever told them to steal or commit robbery. God never says this; it's a matter of will power. Will power is driving you; you can do whatever you want if you wish. It has been said that there is no connection with God here.
Gurudeb:
We call God when we are completely down, when nobody else is around. Only then we take refuge in God; before that, there is no need. So, dualism and non-dualism are working, surely. Now, whether God is making you better or not, you will never be able to understand. When you come to God, your peace of mind can come. When the mind is restless, we say go to God or to a temple; then temporarily their suffering goes away. When they become very tempted or agitated with anythingâbe it family, money, or illnessâwe say sit near God for a while, and then this will pass. Now, I don't know what connection is there; maybe people are coming and getting peace and saying, "Alright, I have got peace" or "My work is done," and so on. Now, what was meant to happen has happened; we give credit to God, thinking that God has done it and we have no more problems.
Gurudeb:
In truth, God does not incite you in any way. God never tells you to commit robbery, steal, or do bad things. This is the absolute truth; we give a lot of blame to God, but actually, it is our ignorance. You can call it a mistake of the mind which is inciting me every moment, thinking that maybe God did this or that. I am telling this to myself, but actually, if you ask me to show God, I won't be able to. Someone who has no existenceâbut our belief is, yes, He has existence. Great sages of the past have said that God exists. We are following their pathâyes, God is there, God is there. Because they have called God, studied about God, and stayed with God. Now, they might not have been able to show God, but they have said many things about Godâthat if you take refuge in Him, your troubles will be over.
Gurudeb:
Now the point is, is it really so? You come here and ask for a glass of water from the Mother; see if she gives it or not. She is not your biological mother that you are calling her Mother. I mean, she is not a biological mother who will give you a glass of water. So, these are people's mistakes and delusionsâ"Your mind didn't get rid of this delusion." You didn't understand how Kali is, O mind, your delusion didn't go away. I couldn't understand anything; we are just obsessing over this. You can call it our ignorance, our impatience, and we are doing these things without understanding. We don't even feel the need to understand who Kali is, what she looks like, or what power she has. This is our ignorance, and from this ignorance all things are originatingâthefts, robberies, snatchings, murdersâthese are happening from my will power. Here, God does not incite anyone to kill people.
Gurudeb:
I can't say whether He exists or not, but the point is that whatever our ancestors have said, we are relying on thatâthat yes, God is there, go to temples. So, we can say this is our consolation; the temples have been made for nothing else. People go and get a bit of peace; people get a bit of peace if they go to God. What that thing is, I have not been able to discover yet. Yes, we have done a lot, tried a lot to see God, but we have failed. But when someone is in trouble, they say, "Go to the Mother." This is a self-evident matter; we are living in hypocrisy. Absolutely, you can call it hypocrisy; there is no mistake in it.
Interviewer:
That means Gurudeb, people do things under the control of their own will power and then blame it on God.
Gurudeb:
Exactly. This is what you can call God. And no human says under will force that they will definitely see God. Some people are trying, but maybe they have found nothing. People like us have tried a lot and found nothing. So, it's a disappointment. I have visited many temples and many places, but I didn't find His existence anywhere. But vibration can be felt in some cases; maybe there is a vibration in some temples. There, the presence of the Mother can perhaps be somewhat understood. Sages understand this; ordinary people don't. They are coming and going, offering puja to the Mother, thinking that maybe everything is over for them. This doesn't happen, brother.
Gurudeb:
A person's will power is driving themâwill power. So, will power is the main thing, and those who have meditated have perhaps written many things about God. In practice, when I am doing it, I am not getting anything. They also didn't get it; they also didn't get it. Still, they have said that one should call God, go to God. I mean, some power is working; there is no mistake in this. One power is working, know this one hundred percent, but what this power is, it's very difficult to catch, my son, very difficult.
Interviewer:
Yes, so the audience, you heard some words from Gurudeb. Pranam, Gurudeb.
Gurudeb:
Pranam, my son, pranam. Blessings to you all.
Spiritual Insight
In this profound discourse, Guru Shyama Khyapa distinguishes between kindness (personal, subjective mercy) and justice (objective judgment), explaining that while humans attribute both to God, they are ultimately human constructs and actions. He further illuminates the difference between dualism (worshipping multiple deities) and non-dualism (recognizing one supreme power), noting that spiritual seekers often confuse their own will power with divine command. His candid admission that even after extensive spiritual practice he has not "seen" God challenges conventional beliefs while affirming that somethingâa power, a vibrationâdoes exist beyond our ordinary perception.