Interviewer:
Namaskar, Gurudev.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Namaskar.
Interviewer:
First, I would like to ask our friends to subscribe to the channel, Guptasadhak Shyamakhapa. The more you subscribe, the more valuable videos of Gurudev we can bring to you. Pranam, Gurudev.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Pranam, son.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, we would be very grateful if you could shed some light on a particular topic today. We have seen in the life of Adi Guru Shankaracharya—the world teacher, Jagadguru Shankaracharya—that when his mother, Vishista Devi, was on her deathbed, he came to her. It is said he arrived via the aerial route, but that's a different matter. He came to his mother during her final moments. To help her achieve liberation, he began explaining the message of the Supreme Brahman—that which is beyond words and the mind. At that time, his mother said, "I cannot understand this, son. I cannot grasp what is beyond speech and mind; it is too difficult. Show me a deity." So, he showed her Lord Shiva. But Shiva appeared with his fierce attendants, the Bhairavas, and she got scared. She said, "I don't like all these tridents and fierce beings. Show me Narayana, the one who holds the conch, discus, mace, and lotus." He replied, "So be it," and showed her that form. My question regarding this is: even someone as great as Vishista Devi, who bore a soul like Shankaracharya in her womb, could not grasp the concept of the Brahman that is beyond mind and speech. This suggests that the path of knowledge (Jnana Yoga) and the path of devotion (Bhakti Yoga) are distinctly different.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Look, there is one thing to consider. Those who bear such noble children in their wombs, even a person like Shankaracharya, may not have sought to "know" God in that way themselves. Look at Shankaracharya's own life. When he was ready for his initiation (Diksha) as a child, his mother forbade it. She said he could not take initiation. Of course, he had to obey his mother. You see the same with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu; he also took his mother's permission after some persuasion. Shankaracharya used a bit of cleverness. He went into the river, and a crocodile caught him and began pulling him under. News reached his mother that a crocodile had grabbed Shankaracharya. She rushed to the riverbank and cried, "Son, come up! Come up!" He replied, "First, give me permission to take initiation and become a monk; only then will the crocodile let me go." In that state, to save her son's life, she agreed. Only then did he come out of the water. This was a clever tactic he used, similar to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Without a mother's consent, one often cannot proceed with initiation. And the initiation of figures like Jagadguru Shankaracharya or Nimai (Chaitanya) is no ordinary matter. It is a profound initiation. Even the one giving it would think four times, and the one receiving it is already eager. The giver has to think deeply about who they are initiating. They recognize the spiritual caliber of the person.
Interviewer:
So, Gurudev, we see a clear division here. When we talk about the path of knowledge, as opposed to devotion, the context of scriptures and books (Puthi) often arises.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, the scriptures. Back then, there were no printed books, only handwritten manuscripts (Puthi).
Interviewer:
I want to talk about the role of these scriptures—how they act as a "Guru" or a part of our education in life.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Well, look, you aren't born with knowledge. Only someone like Vedavyasa was born with immense knowledge. Or Sukadeva. They were born enlightened; they could recite the Vedas from within the womb. Did you know that?
Interviewer:
Yes, Gurudev.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Their mothers would hear the Vedic chants while they were still in the womb. But for the rest of us, we must take refuge in the scriptures to gain knowledge. Ramprasad said, "In the midst of the sea of knowledge, there is a pearl called peace." One who has knowledge has peace. Without knowledge, there is no peace. To gain this, we need help. Some rare people are born with knowledge, like Lord Krishna. He was born with it. His birth was no ordinary event. Even as a very young child, he showed his divine powers—the killing of Putana, Bakasura, and others. But not everyone can do that. However, I believe God sends everyone with a "full bag" of knowledge. Some open it, and some don't. The one who opens it dives into the sea of knowledge. Knowledge is an ocean; it has no end.
Interviewer:
So, if one doesn't find a Guru or a guide like you to help "open" that bag, but finds a book or a scripture instead, can that work?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Finding a Guru at the age of 70 is of little use. Everything must happen in childhood. You can't teach an old parrot to talk. It has to start early.
Interviewer:
But if I don't find such a person in my youth and I take help from a book or scripture, is that an indirect path?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
A Guru provides a direct action. He won't care for books. He might even throw the books away. This happened with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. When he went to Varanasi and was challenged by the scholars, he sat on the ground. People were shocked—"Nimai Pandit, why are you on the ground?" He said, "From today, I have thrown all my books and logic into the water. I have nothing left." When a person gains true, high-level knowledge—reaches the state of a Paramahansa—scriptures and horoscopes no longer matter. At that stage, every moment is just a moment. Logic fails. But to reach that, one must climb step by step to the state of Turiya (pure consciousness). Some show this from childhood, like Shankaracharya or Vivekananda. They were born with it. Ramakrishna, too. Look at Bamdev (Bama Khepa). When he brought the Vashistha stone, he wondered who would protect it after him. I mentioned this in a previous episode. Ultimately, he himself was born as Bamdev. That is why the names of Bamdev and Vashistha are mentioned together. Mukhananda came from Varanasi to recite the Vedas to him. Bama Khepa didn't know how to read or write, but Mukhananda, from the Benares Hindu University, came to recite the Vedas to him and ended up staying with him because he was so impressed. Eventually, Bama Khepa threw those Vedic rituals aside because once you "know," you don't need the ritual.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
If you recite four verses of the Vedas, it might do you some good—cure an illness or bring prosperity. But if you understand the true utility of the Vedas, you might move beyond them. Those verses are meant for the welfare of people and the world. But to reach the state of Turiya, they aren't as necessary. As Ramprasad said: "In the sea of knowledge, there is a pearl called peace. You will find it through devotion if you seek it according to Shiva's pact." This "Shiva's pact" refers to Shiva's promise to the Mother Goddess: "I will remain at your feet; I will not rise above you." Lord Shiva, the possessor of infinite wealth and power, vowed to always stay at the Mother's feet. Any human can take this same vow with the same knowledge. Knowledge is the key.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, to reiterate, Vedavyasa divided the Puranas into 18 parts, wrote the massive Mahabharata, and within it, we find the Gita. All of these are scriptures. They are essential for a person's spiritual elevation.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Yes, they are necessary. How else would you know about the great demons of the past? You have to read the Puranas. Reading the Ramayana and Mahabharata increases your knowledge. These are the two great epics of India. If you read Valmiki's original Ramayana, it's only about 50 pages. There are no stories of Luv and Kush there. But if you read the version by Krittibas or Tulsidas, it's 5,000 pages! They added stories about the exile, the descent to the underworld, and the children Luv and Kush. These were later additions. The original was much shorter.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, the Kolkata Book Fair is coming up soon in January. Tons of religious books will be printed and sold. Many people buy them and try to learn.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Some people go to the book fair just for the atmosphere—to eat some food, buy two books, and put them in a cupboard. They never read them. They just collect dust.
Interviewer:
But you are saying that a proper Guru or guide is more important than just books?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
A guide is absolutely necessary. You cannot do it without one.
Interviewer:
Can I consider a book as a "mini-guru" if I can't find a person?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
In every scripture, you will find the Guru mentioned first. First is the Guru Vandana (praise of the Guru), then Ganesh Vandana, then Shiva Vandana. The Guru always comes first. If you open the Brihat Tantrasara, there are 300 pages just about the Guru! But who reads 300 pages about a Guru? People just take initiation and think that's it. They say, "Hey Guru, let's go have tea," or "Guru, let's go have a drink," or "Guru, let's smoke some ganja." People find Gurus based on their own tendencies (Vritti). A drinker will look for a Guru who also drinks, thinking, "My Guru can finish two bottles and not stumble; let me take initiation from him." A smoker will look for a Guru who can shatter a pipe in one puff. You get what you seek based on your nature. But a good person will eventually find a good Guru if they keep searching. You have to search. God has made it so that you have to wander to find a Guru. It's like searching for which stone is a Narayana (Saligram). You have to look through many stones before you find the one. Similarly, after much searching, God provides a good Guru.
Interviewer:
So, we can take help from books in the meantime?
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Of course. The book is your first Guru. That's what I've been trying to say. Then, as you gain awareness and grow, you realize the need for a living Guru.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, today we learned a profound truth from you—that while we need a physical Guru, for those on the path of knowledge, books and scriptures serve as the initial guide.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Knowledge is an ocean. When you worship Goddess Saraswati, you must do it with the knowledge of Brahman (Brahma-gyan), as she is the presiding deity of Brahma's knowledge. When you worship Lakshmi, it is with the knowledge of Vishnu. When you worship Durga or Kali, it is with the knowledge of Shiva. When we perform these rituals, there is knowledge behind them. It is a vast sea. Taking a couple of buckets of water from it isn't enough. One is born with this potential. You cannot stop it.
Interviewer:
Gurudev, my pranams to you for these valuable words.
Guru Shyama Khyapa:
Very well.
Guru Shyama Khyapa (Sanskrit Blessing):
Sarve bhavantu sukhinah (May all be happy) / Sarve santu niramayah (May all be free from illness) / Sarve bhadrani pashyantu (May all see what is auspicious) / Ma kashchit duhkha bhagbhavet (May no one suffer) / Om shanti, shanti, shanti (Om peace, peace, peace.)