The Feeling of a Saint: A Conversation on Divine Realization

Guru: Blessings, my son.

Guru: Look, there is always a matter of wanting and receiving; it’s not that there isn't. Sadhus (sages) want the Mother’s lotus feet. That is why the saint Ram Prasad said, "Some, O Mother, you give the status of Brahma, while others you cast down." That means Ma gives someone the highest spiritual realization and casts another down according to their karma. This is based on their deeds.

When sages first begin their spiritual practice, they need a foundation. Without the virtues of past lives, one cannot become a seeker of the Mother. A seeker will be a seeker in every birth. In some lives, they may have a family, and in others, they may not. This is the rule. Depending on their karma, Ma may give them a family in the next life or may not.

Sadhus start with a foundation when they begin their practice. They need something—usually a form or an image of a deity—to start with. Later, when they understand the Mother’s true essence or the essence of God, they no longer need the physical form. This is a profound realization. Initially, seekers play with God. Later, when the "game" ends, the seeker’s only wish is, "Now, take me into your lap." This is an inner desire of the seeker—to witness the Mother. There is no escape from this longing.

That is why we say, while practicing, take someone as your foundation and move forward with them. When you truly know them, regardless of which deity they are, you will no longer have a worldly attachment to them. In the process, a person sometimes reaches a state of madness. As the inner spirit (Hansa) awakens, the seeker’s thoughts and outlook change completely, and they enter the world of action. Then, the specific form of the Mother is no longer required.

Guru: Exactly, you move into a different world. That is the rule; that is what happens. You enter another realm. Ma is always there, but it’s about how much the seeker trusts Ma and how much Ma trusts the seeker. They are complementary to each other. Mother keeps track of everything the seeker does. You’ve seen this in Ram Prasad’s life as well.

Ram Prasad once said, "Does a child not survive if the mother dies? I call out to Mother, but she has her eyes and ears closed. Yet, Ma exists within this suffering child. Does a child not survive if the mother dies?" In another instance, when he was very sad, he told Mother, "This time, Kali, I will eat you! A child born in a great moment is one who eats his mother." He expressed this through his songs. Sages sometimes distance themselves from the Mother, and then reconnect again. We see this often in Ram Prasad’s life. He said, "I eat so many things, but I don't get to taste your love. I traveled to many lands, but I couldn't find your grace."

These are all the Mother’s workings. Ma works invisibly. A seeker knows but doesn't fully know; understands but doesn't fully understand. Even great sages, at some point, stop asking for the Mother. We saw this with Bama Khepa; he wouldn't go into the Mother's temple. He would sit in his own place. If anyone came to him, he would say, "Go, go offer worship to the Mother. Go see the Mother."

Guru: That is the point. Some meanings are beyond human understanding. Otherwise, everyone would become a sage or God. This realization is very difficult—the most difficult of all.

Guru: Yes, in the end, that is what sages say. "I have nothing; whatever there is, it's with the Mother. Go there and tell her." Now, whether they say this out of frustration or from the depths of their soul, or with what perspective, is hard to tell. It’s a mystery.

Guru: There’s nothing much to explain. I have practiced, and now people say I am God or that I can do many things. But that’s not it. Ma does everything invisibly. Sages never say, "I did this." They don't need to. They believe in the Mother and send people to her. They say, "Go tell the Mother, I am behind you." Whatever is said to the Mother, the seeker hears. The seeker says, "Ask the Mother for whatever you want." This often comes from a lack of confidence; sometimes sages get frustrated. This has happened to all great souls—from Ramakrishna to Vivekananda to Bama Khepa. If you read their biographies, especially about their later years, you will understand.

Whether they did it or Ma did it through them is a great mystery. Even I still don't fully understand who is doing the work. But work is happening. People are coming with faith. Who is doing it? This is a gray area. I can’t explain it even today, but things are getting done. People tell me their problems, and two days later they say the work is done. Who did it? How? It’s hard to say.

Once, I was sitting at the cremation ground (shmashan) calling out to Mother. A great Sadhu came. I stood up and bowed to him. I asked, "Father, I am doing this work, but who is actually performing it?" He scolded me, saying, "Why do you need to know who is doing it? You stay in your place. Let whoever is doing it, do it. What’s it to you?" He told me I didn't need to worry about such things. He asked, "Who are you to do the work?" I realized I was on the wrong path, and he corrected me. He said, "People come to you, they will come. You just listen. Your ears are like the Ganges. Just listen and tell them to go to the Mother. Whatever happens, Ma will do it. You are just an ordinary person; what can you do?" I learned this from him, and it awakened me.

Someone is definitely doing it. I thought I was sitting at the pyre wishing well for someone, and then I see it actually happened. I have no direct connection to it. Now I just tell people to tell me their problems, and the work will be done. I send most people to the Mother’s temple.

Another great sage taught me something when I was at a peak state. A gentleman came to me and asked for something. I said, "I have nothing to give you." He said, "Is there no soil under Mother's feet? Give me some soil in the Mother’s name, and I will be fine." He offered me a cigarette and some tea and said, "Nothing else is needed. Just give people the soil from under her feet in her name. They will be fine." Later, I realized he had come from Pashupatinath. He was wearing a coat. I was astonished. When I gave him the soil, he taught me that if you have nothing else, you have the soil under your feet. Pick it up with a seed mantra (Beej Mantra) and give it to people; they will be healed.

Guru: Yes, they do come. Even Totapuri came to Ramakrishna to teach him the Vedas and Vedanta. Ramakrishna didn't believe in them at first, but later he became a firm believer. Someone always comes as a messenger of Mother.

When we finished the Mahamrityunjaya Yajna, I was sitting one evening and a very tall, beautiful man with long matted hair (jata) came and sat at my feet. He bowed to me. I was stunned; he looked exactly like Lord Shiva. I touched his hair, and my hand recoiled. He blessed me. I whispered in his ear, "Father, will you give me something?" He said, "You already have everything; what can I give you?" I asked where he came from, and he said he came from Pashupatinath because he heard the Mahamrityunjaya Yajna was being performed here. I told him it had ended a few days ago. He said, "I know. I have nothing to give you. Everything is within you. Whatever you do will happen." Then he spoke familiarly to me, and as he left, he said, "I will come to you again." I have been waiting for two years for him to return. I know he won't come back, but 22 to 24 people there were witnesses to this.

Guru: Yes, I see it, but I still cannot pierce this mystery. They first come as ordinary people, give a lesson, and leave. The one from Pashupatinath had almost no clothes on, but his matted hair was extraordinary. I was so tempted by his hair that when I tried to touch it, my hand was pushed away. He sat at my feet for a long time, bowed, and said he would come again.

Gods appear in human form, but humans don't always realize it because they lack that consciousness or that "eye." We see the outer world with these two eyes, but with the Third Eye, we can see much further—into other worlds and even hear the conversations of Gods. That is why Ramakrishna used to say, "I want to see with my physical eyes, but I also want to see with the eye of knowledge (Third Eye)." Those who have opened their Third Eye can see and hear the divine.

I have performed many rituals for 30 or 32 years. But one thing I know—all these people coming, Ma is doing their work. I don't know how, but it’s happening. For those who come with devotion and love, their work is done in a day. For those with a clouded mind or duplicity, it takes longer. But those who trust Mother get results immediately.

Sages sometimes "leave" the Mother, then hold her feet again. This is the game between the seeker and the Mother. When the game ends, the seeker says, "Now, take me into your lap." Even Ramakrishna left the temple of the Mother for a while after studying the Vedas and Vedanta, as he had reached a higher realization. Sages live within society, they talk and joke with everyone, but internally, they are performing their spiritual work.

Guru: These are called "Vibhuti" (divine powers). When someone calls out from the heart, Ma doesn't go herself; she sends someone to do the work. I get calls from all over India saying, "You came to my house." I tell them, "The more the devotion, the sweeter the result." It’s through Kriya Yoga that such things happen. Most of these visits happen at night, never during the day. People call from all over saying they saw me. One person even said I visited, they bowed to me, and when they offered me tea, I vanished. Whether this is a state of their mind or something else, I cannot say.

Guru: There are many such cases. Just this morning, a Muslim man from Bangladesh called. He asked, "I am a Muslim; can I be a devotee of Kali?" I said, "Why not? You say your prayers (Namaz), perform your ablutions (Wudu), and also remember Mother Kali." He had a vision of the Mother in his dream and called me. I told him there is no problem. Your Allah and my God are one and the same. Just don't make a public show of it because your society might not understand. He agreed.

Guru: Blessings, my son.