Host:
Greetings to everyone. We know that two great souls are sitting here today, whom we don't always get to see together. On this warm evening—I say warm because it’s quite hot now—on this warm evening, I start today’s episode by offering my respect to the Mother and Father of Shantikonjo. I welcome the new viewers to the "Guptasadhak Shamakhapa" YouTube channel and thank our old friends for staying with us. Pronam (salutations), Gurudeb. Pronam, Maharaj. Today, as you are sitting together, there will surely be a spiritual conversation between you. Before we start, a mother (devotee) wants to offer a garland to Maharaj.
Gurudeb:
Yes, let her do it.
Host:
And another devotee, Keka, is offering a garland to our Gurudeb. Let's have a round of applause for this!
Narrator:
(Applause)
Host:
Now, the spiritual conversation between Gurudeb and Maharaj begins. Pronam to both of you. Please begin.
Gurudeb:
Maharaj called me yesterday, saying he would come over. He knows I love and respect him deeply. There’s no doubt about that. I’ve seen very few people who have performed the Viroja Homa. It’s hard to find such people in today's world. He has performed Viroja, and he is at a very high level spiritually. You won’t always find him in his meditative state; he stays in the Ashram. He’s like me, living in a simple, broken-down Ashram. But spiritually, he is at the top. He doesn't easily reveal himself to people. We’ve discussed how we met; I don't even remember clearly. I was in the hospital once, and he came to see me there. He has also visited here. I don't know why he likes me so much, but he praises me constantly. He says, "There is no one as good as you; I will visit you." I told him he’s welcome anytime. If you come every day, we would feel that we have achieved something. You are holy men; the dust of your feet is valuable. We don't have much value. I left Tantra sadhana a long time ago. I even discarded my sacred thread (paita). I don't even chant japa anymore. This is my personal matter, and I don't want others to criticize it, but yes, I have discarded the thread and the chanting.
Maharaj:
You must have received a divine command to do so.
Gurudeb:
I can't say if it was a command, but I don't do it anymore.
Host:
Maharaj, Gurudeb mentioned you performed a very difficult ritual called the Viroja Homa. Could you tell our viewers about it?
Maharaj:
Viroja is the final stage. After Viroja, there is nothing left. It is the end, the absolute zero, the great void. This body is made of five elements; one cannot kill it themselves as suicide is a great sin. But only the fire remains—the fire of the color of knowledge. With that fire of knowledge, this body burns slowly, enduring the three types of worldly suffering. People might think I am in pain, but in reality, I am in great bliss. I am drinking the nectar of immortality. The Mother has taken responsibility for me. I am Her child. This is the greatest sadhana. There is nothing greater in this world. I eat and wear from the Mother's hand, and She has taken charge of me. This is not just a song; it is realized through every pore, every drop of blood, every bone and organ. This isn't something taught by others.
Gurudeb:
Ramprasad said this in his songs: "I eat and wear from the Mother's hand, and Mother has taken charge of me." After that, there is nothing more to say. It’s the end.
Maharaj:
How many of us are even worthy of uttering the name of Saint Ramprasad Sen? I feel it is a bit audacious for me to even say his name.
Gurudeb:
But we live in this material world, so we have to discuss these things for the people. That’s why his name comes up. My Gurudeb, Bamdev Baba, loved Ramprasad deeply. He used to listen to his songs frequently.
Maharaj:
I want to say something clearly; if I don’t, it would be a wrong. He is a "Maha Bhairav" (a great spiritual manifestation). I offer my respects to him. People think many things, but that is their perspective. This is not about praise or criticism. What do I have to ask for or gain today? Someone might say something good or bad, but what does it matter in this life? I don’t need anything. I have heart disease, thyroid issues, and I take many medicines. But as you told me long ago, we worship death. The Mother is the messenger of death; She is Kali. We don't do sadhana to gain something. People ask me, "What did you get?" I jokingly say, "I have the whole of America in my palm!" People think sadhana gives you things. No, you have to lose everything. You have to become naked, stripped of everything, and come to the Mother.
Gurudeb:
I have seen many people and traveled with many saints, but I have never seen someone like you who has performed Viroja. Please explain the meaning of Viroja to the people.
Host:
We see both great souls getting emotional. Maharaj’s eyes are filled with tears. Gurudeb is asking about Viroja Homa because it is the final stage of a human's spiritual journey.
Maharaj:
I cannot go into full detail unless the Divine Mother allows it. I will try to explain, but then I might be pushed back. I've come here many times, and I will come as many times as I am told. My body is not mine; I have sacrificed it to the Mother. If I fall ill, I go to the hospital, and the doctors are there. Everything is free for us; that is our reward. About the body's "tax"—we all pay tax to the Mother through our service. Mother is the only Brahmamayi. There is nothing else in this universe. She even nursed the infant Bholenath (Shiva). We are often so uncivilized in our "civilization." We have embraced the lower path, forgetting good qualities and the desire to help others. People today are only interested in rituals for selfish gains. That’s why Tantra has a bad name now. It has become a profession—a way to make money. People say, "I will do this for you if you pay me." That is not sadhana; it is a crime. At the Sri Sri Matri Mandir in Lansdowne, not a single penny is taken. There is no donation box.
Gurudeb:
Same here at Shantikonjo. There is no donation system or commercialization. It is a seeker's duty to protect the faith. A seeker has no father, mother, or brother—only the Mother. The world is Mother.
Maharaj:
I didn't come here relying on anyone. I'm not asking for favors. We are beggars of devotion (bhakti bhikkha). We desire only the Mother's feet. Swami Vivekananda also asked for wisdom and detachment. When he needed a job, Sri Ramakrishna told him to go ask the Mother. I love people from my heart. Whether there's another Maha Bhairav in India like him, I don't know. I don't care for praise or criticism. I speak clearly and I only fear one person—the Divine. I have seen his inner heart; it’s like a child. Sometimes he is a child (botu), sometimes he is Mahakal. If you can't love him from the heart, there's no point.
Gurudeb:
We don't care if people love us. As long as Mother loves us, it’s enough. That is the essence of sadhana.
Maharaj:
When a seeker progresses by Mother's grace, they are first tested by the Ganas and spirits (Pret-Pishach). They try to shake your seat. It’s like wanting to meet the Prime Minister; you first have to go through the counselor, the MLA, and the ministers. Only then do you get to the PM. That is the level of sadhana. Once the Ganas approve and say "this soul is good," then you progress. It’s not a magic trick. People think Tantra is magic, like P.C. Sorcar. He respects the Mother every day because She is the greatest magician. He does it for entertainment, but sadhana is not entertainment. It requires intense discipline. Girish Ghosh’s cancer was taken by Sri Ramakrishna upon himself. If there is no true devotion, acting doesn't help.
Host:
Gurudeb and Maharaj, I have a small question. Many people want to know how Kundalini awakening happens.
Gurudeb:
My dear, only those who do it know it. I can't explain it in five minutes. It’s not something that can be told; it must be achieved through one's own effort. It is like "math" involving the breath and air. You can't just pull it up; even a Guru can't just pull it up for you. It depends on your own discipline. Dive deep into yourself.
Maharaj:
You must become still. Move from the material to the conscious state. People think sadhana is like a game of snakes and ladders. It’s not. People ask me, "How does he survive? He doesn't have a grocery shop, so how does he eat?" There's a misconception that householders are "low" and sanyasis are "great." A sanyasi might have thousands of children (disciples). People come to me constantly with their personal problems—marriage, exams. They think I am God and that if I say "yes," it will happen. Gurudeb was waiting for me like a thirsty bird. I apologize for being late; I took a wrong turn. Maharaj calls me a Bhairav. Bhairav is a form of Mahadev. Depending on the stage and the vessel, He has different names—Mahakal, Sadashiva, Kal-Bhairav.
Host:
People come to you with many personal problems.
Maharaj:
There is no "person." It’s just restlessness at home. People come to me every hour. On Saturdays and Sundays, it's crowded. I remember when we first met, I told you I wouldn't see anyone else. When a Mahatma comes, the heart fills with joy. But most people just come to ask for things—jobs, food. I tell them I don't want to stay here in this world anymore. I don't mean death; I mean I don't want to be part of the material world. It’s hard to explain this to everyone.
Host:
We would love to listen to you both all night, but we are limited by time. We want to show the viewers how you perceive religion compared to how the general public sees it.
Gurudeb:
God will arrange everything. Religion means to evolve. If it’s based on bad teachings, it won’t work. Religion should lead you toward spirituality. Most people are just sleeping; they eat and sleep and think whatever happens, happens.
Host:
I offer my respects to both Gurudeb and Maharaj, and to all our viewers. We end today’s session here. Pronam.